nakama_mod: (Default)
Nakama TCG ([personal profile] nakama_mod) wrote in [community profile] nakama_tcg2013-02-13 09:07 am
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Opinion time!

So it's been brought up to me that some people have had issues with the way logging works in the tcg, particularly card count. Accordingly, the system makes it inconvenient for people who depend on the automated system of hosted posts, which ends up taking more time for them than necessary to update the logs.

Originally, the idea for the way the card count is set up (counting cards as they arrive) was to make it easier for the mods to check logs and make sure that they're not coming up with more or less cards than what the player owns. This has been the plan since the start and I had not been clear on it, which is probably what caused the issue.

This is especially prevalent when people include 00 cards into their system that gets counted into the overall card count. Now, to be honest I'm not sure how to find a middle ground for this on my own, and as this does involve the players logs, I want your opinion on how the logs should be set up. Note, this only affects card count, not trade count, so I would love to heard what you guys think would be a fair system for both the mods and the players.

For giving your opinion, you get one choice single/special card. Let me know here what you took!

P.S. Guys, please don't be afraid to let us know if you have suggestions/opinions. I know there's still a lot of room for improvement, so letting us know things asap helps a lot. Thank you.
radria: (Default)

[personal profile] radria 2013-02-13 01:37 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I'll be honest, counting cards as they come in is honestly a huge issue (as many time, you'll be trading away a certain number of cards and gain back those + extras, which means you'll end up hanging logs that say :

traded away 8 cards -8 to gain 16 cards +16 (etc)

Now, unless you actually add in the 00cards to your sections on the automatic card setup, it shouldn't actually count them in the card count. Most players should be able to add a section for 'upcoming decks that they want' and mark the card worth as '0' to prevent extra cards from being counted.

My opinion is that it's way too easy to get things miscounted and confused by having both an automated card count and a card count in the logs as well (trade logs not withstanding, of course). I did a test run to see and ended up having 30+ extra cards in a manual card count (because I hadn't remembered to do the - 8, +8 cards and it was completely confusing).

So, long story short, as long as people aren't including the 00 cards as part of the card count, I would much rather prefer to keep to just the automatic card count provided by my client. Having to do an additional card count by hand is confusing, difficult to keep proper track of and leaves less time for trades and game play at the end of the day.

For those that do have manual logs, the best I could suggest would be doing a card count at the end of every day's updates (when that player updates) For example;

this day of updates (card count - 8)
- traded in card1, card2 to gain card c, card d, card e, card f
- won card1, card2, card3, card4 in game a

That card count covers the 4 original cards and the 4 cards gained from the new game. Simple, to the point and easy to update from. (especially when you don't have an automatic log to go by)

That way, players without an automatic log can update it when they make their updates and players with the automatic logs can still use those.

So yep. My thoughts on the matter. :) Taking scarves25 in exchange.
netbug009: Colors TCG - Netbug (Scoreboard)

[personal profile] netbug009 2013-02-13 02:08 am (UTC)(link)
To be honest, I've been asking people to do this and checking it because it's a rule, not because I don't normally trust the card count they have on their page. ^^;

To me, TCGs are built around the honor system to begin with. If a user says that they have 400 card count and it isn't obviously impossible like they joined a week ago or whatever, that's good enough for me.

And when it comes to eTCG, when I have 00 cards in the system I put them in a 0 worth pile and use my card worth subtracting 1 for puzzle cards. It's still kinda complex but less so than counting EVERYTHING.
netbug009: Colors TCG - Netbug (Scoreboard)

[personal profile] netbug009 2013-02-13 02:09 am (UTC)(link)
Oh look, choice card! Ummmm grabbing hats04
headset: (Default)

[personal profile] headset 2013-02-13 02:19 am (UTC)(link)
To be honest, I don't see what the hassle of manually counting is. Having things automated is useful, sure, but it takes a few seconds top to add the card count/necessary notes to your logs when you have the opportunity to. I'm not in the position to check counts, but if it helps the mods that are in charge of those services, then I think it's fair that as players we try to make their jobs as easy as we can — since everything they do is voluntary, after all. If it doesn't, then as long as people have a believable card count then all's fine I guess.

tl;dr I'm fine with keeping or losing the rule, so count this as abstain!

Grabbing whiteknight03, thanks!
cureelliott: (Default)

[personal profile] cureelliott 2013-02-13 02:30 am (UTC)(link)
I use the automated system on my page and I haven't had any trouble with my card count as far as I know? It's all fairly straight forward, even if you use 00 cards in the automated system. I don't think any changes need to be made and if anyone's struggling to make sense of the automated system and the use of 0 value cards, they are welcome to ask me about it.

grabbing puns01! ;)
seborga: (Default)

[personal profile] seborga 2013-02-13 04:18 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, I actually set my 00 cards as worth 0 too. I suppose if it's too confusing I could do away with the section or just paste the cards manually into my php. I also leave card worth count instead of a regular card count. This makes it easier and more accurate for a count to me. I used to keep a manual count via colorstcg but ah somehow I'd be off quite a bit each time I counted. Then again I had been playing for awhile and had amassed a collection of over 1k.

Snagging advtime05, thanks!

[personal profile] ex_painter182 2013-02-13 05:11 am (UTC)(link)
Hm, I don't actually have a problem counting the cards. I actually got the automated system after I had like nearly 100 cards and started adding in the numbers to make things easy for the mods (since it was added in) but as long as we counted it early (not like we're into 1000 cards before counting now that I would go dizzy just counting!), it's not a problem. At least that's what I think.

I also do a separate brackets for my difference in the card count due to trading special cards, makes things easier for the level mod and myself).

Aaaand my wishlist cards are also 0, using my card worth works for other tcgs (like Colors) where special/single are worth the same but since our puzzles are worth 2, I try to keep my wishlist small so that it's easily for deducting and I don't confuse myself or turn in my leveling earlier than expected. I'm thinking of using the settings to display words instead of the 00 cards themselves so that'll be a "fix" somewhat. :x

Taking memories04 as my choice card! ♥
carnimirie: (houkago tea time)

[personal profile] carnimirie 2013-02-13 06:01 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm, I'm not really familiar with the automated card count that those with non-DW card posts have (though I have gotten my own page at needtakehave and have been sloooowly learning how to set things up in case I find it easier to have that sort of set-up) so I can't really speak on that subject. I admit I was a little confused by the examples for logs that were added, and I think I may be doing it wrong right now (where I'm logging how much each individual game/action gained me, but not what the new total card count is). For me personally, I would be all right with including a card count total after each logged activity if that makes it easier for the mods that need to check it.

Sorry my brains a little ~_~ sleepy right now, if I think of anything more helpful later I'll be sure to add it. From the other comments it looks like there's some good feedback/suggestions so I'm sure we'll all be able to figure this out :)

Taking hats21 o/

after an eight hour shift at work I'm more awake now?? anyways Hmm, just something that was bothering me a little bit when I thought of it, but it sounds like the card count would be expected just for the activities/game log, not the trade log entries, right? However, and I'm not sure if I misunderstood, I think there was some confusion about this, but puzzle cards count as 1 when we do card count, but 2 when it's traded, right? So, say I get two puzzle cards from a game, my card count should go up by 2, not 4... but then if I trade one of them away for two singles, my card count should go up by 1 for that additional card, right? But that additional card won't show up in my activities log because it was gained through a trade, so that log will either be off by one because I forgot to add it in my total in my activities log card count, or it will be accurate to what I have but appear as if an extra card has been added that is unaccounted for... So in the end, would we have to do a card count when we do puzzle-for-singles trades too? I don't know if I just went and made it more complicated than it is/should be, but...

Hmm, I guess it really comes down to how much the logs are used to verify card count for level ups, versus the actual cards on the page? I can understand trade logs needing the count to claim prizes for that, but wouldn't the actual cards on the card post be an easier way to verify card count than reading through activity logs anyhow? Like I said above, if we are required to keep a record of card count after each activity logged, I'm willing to do that, since it's not much different from what I'm doing now, though I would prefer if we can start from this point and get some leeway on the past two months' logs; that is, I could at my leisure get those past logs up-to-date without being prevented from using them for card-count-based services ^^
Edited 2013-02-13 22:11 (UTC)
suguro: (Default)

[personal profile] suguro 2013-02-13 10:54 am (UTC)(link)
I find the new logging rule rather troublesome because I use an automatic system to save time and this, in my opinion, defeats that purpose. I have set up my automated script to count by worth so I can exclude any card or badge that shouldn't be in the count, so I'm pretty confident my count is more or less accurate.

To me it's a big deal because now I'm sort of forced to go back to my logs and recount two months of activity and truly, I don't have that sort of time =/ I love the game, and I want to enjoy it fully and this kinda discourages me because I think the way I do logs is already detailed enough and the way I count cards is pretty practical and saves me time I can use to play.

The way I see it, total accuracy in card count is relevant for level ups, but not extremely mandatory? See it this way: if a player has a total of 101 cards and is claiming a level up and they are missing 2 cards, the mod can't hand out rewards. However, if a player has 450 cards and claims rewards for level 5, it doesn't matter whether they're off by a card or not, they still should get their rewards.

I also believe that keeping track of the number of cards we have in the logs doesn't mean the count will be completely accurate. It's also possible to make a mistake there, too, so it's kinda the same? I mean, just more work if we have to double or triple-check.

Lastly, I'm also against this because I think it's a bit unfair that players won't have any freedom left when it comes down to how they write their logs. I completely understand why we have the full card name rule and the trade count rule, but this rule I find silly when I'm already careful enough with my count and I feel my logs are detailed enough.

Thanks for giving us the chance to discuss this! taking cancer03
yokatta: (Default)

[personal profile] yokatta 2013-02-13 11:22 am (UTC)(link)
My biggest issue with this situation is that, as far as I know, there wasn't an announcement about it earlier in the game. When you first read the rules before joining, there was an example of how to write logs and it was mandatory to write card names out completely and as a masteries mod, I can understand that (I'm sure some players also find it troublesome, but they could decide right then if they wanted to join or not), but now adding card count to logs when I haven't done so in the last two months and finding out through a service is a little shocking. It makes me wonder why, if you had the idea from the beginning, it was not included in the rules as well.

I think that I wouldn't have a HUGE problem with doing my logs like this from now on, BUT, I don't really want to go back in my logs and write a number for each of the entries because, even though my activity is not huge and you can say "Oh, but it's a one-time thing!" I just feel like it'll take the fun out of the game for me. So, the middle ground I can suggest is, if you agree of course, to count my cards manually myself (as someone says above, we're running in an honor system, so you'd have to believe my accuracy) and then add the total in my logs at this point (I'm on a hiatus, so it'd be before the activity I have received since I went on it) and then start counting from the new activity I've gotten. Do let me know if this would be allowed.

I'm taking artemisia02
sleipnir: (〖psycho pass〗 ❷)

[personal profile] sleipnir 2013-02-13 03:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I pretty much agree with most of the points made in comments above. It's the first time I heard of such a rule and while I understand where you're coming from, I still can't help but find it bothersome. I have been in quite a few TCGs and there was never a problem with card count, so I was quite surprised with the new rule. If I get it right, the biggest issue with the actual card count is because of the automated system counting each card worth as one? As someone who updates the post manually, I just don't see the point of me going through it. Of course, there is no exceptions, but I just can't bring myself to like the rule. I am pretty sure the count would be more accurate in my case, as well, as I usually re-count them at least once.

TCGs are to be played for fun, and while I like when mods are strict and cheating doesn't happen, I think it might be a little too much to expect. I probably wouldn't mind much if I was very passionate about TCGs as I was once but right now, when I play them when I have the time? it just too much of a bother. I would probably get to it once I can level up quite a few times at once or else I don't think it's worth it. Updating the post manually already takes some time, and I wouldn't want to spend as much when it comes to updating logs and re-checking everything once more just to make sure I didn't make a mistake. While I really like how this TCG runs, I think this might be a little too much to expect from members. I know some people barely even have the time to update once a week, and having such rule, that I personally haven't seen anywhere else, might make people unwilling to continue playing, if that makes any sense? Of course, they can pass on leveling up but that would be taking some fun out of playing.

As for the rest, I think the comment above mine is pretty spot on when it comes to my views on that system so I will leave it at that.

I'll be taking crystal07 as my choice card, thank you!
Edited 2013-02-13 15:29 (UTC)
chromoplasted: (Default)

[personal profile] chromoplasted 2013-02-13 11:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, most of the others have made good points above. I'm a manual counter, and right now my system involves counting the card worth count at the end of each log entry, e.g.

gain card1, card2 from activity [+2, total 104]

Honestly, this is the first TCG I've been in that has used such a strict system (not that it's a bad thing, just that I think many of us are not used to it). Most TCGs I've played have resorted slightly to trust on matters like this, and, obviously, once in a while you came across a cheater, whether their cheating was intentional or not. So I really have no feelings either way, although I like my own system, otherwise I wouldn't use it. However, while mistakes may happen and some players may cheat for whatever reason, I think that we're all here to have fun. And if anyone does cheat, it's gonna be obvious to everyone eventually. I don't really think there's anything wrong with going off a trust system.

/Taking bahamut14!
starseeker: (Default)

[personal profile] starseeker 2013-02-14 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
I pretty much agree with the points above me against the new rule, honestly. Besides of being too strict and kind of taking from the fun of TCGs in general, it's much too bothersome to go back to the beginning and count everything, especially for people like me, who don't even have an automatic system? I actually thought of not leveling up anymore in case the rule still stands, because a few cards really aren't worth all the time consumed counting, haha.

And anyway, if someone counted wrong by a few cards (like 1-4, for example), they'll get there eventually if they continue to play the game, so I really do not see the problem. I think cheating by a huge amount would be impossible, anyway, as it's pretty easy to see, and if someone wants to cheat they'll find a way to cheat anywhere, no need to enforce something that makes people who actually play fair suffer? I'm sorry if I sounded rude or anything here, I just wanted to be as clear as possible on the matter.

Taking scarves03 as my choice card, thank you!
gon: © gon (Default)

[personal profile] gon 2013-02-14 02:39 am (UTC)(link)
If I'm understanding this right, there's been a problem because people might not have logged their card counts and that there's been a problem with logging in itself because it might create problems between mods and players.

I've only just joined, and I manage with easy TCG which I'm supposing a lot of us are using... I personally think that using a manager to count cards is actually more accurate provided that you correctly input the worth of the cards. 00 cards should have worths of 0 and have their own category etc, as some people have already mentioned.

If logging manually, I used to do that and keep track of links to games as well as a constantly updated card count for each activity (my old manual logs in another TCG) and all I can say is that, even though my math isn't bad, I make mistakes either way. Turns out sometimes, I have to spend 2-3 hours just COUNTING and recounting my cards I have displayed vs. my card count, and figuring out what card(s) is/are missing or is/are in addition. In my honest opinion, it's not even worth doing that whole manual counting anymore because there's going to be an error margin of around +/- 2-3 cards for every 750 or so cards (...these numbers are more or less by experience and are definitely not factual). And it takes FOREVER to find out what happened... and most times it's not even because of cheating ;__; it's just... forgetfulness and arithmetical mistakes?

In my opinion, as long as the person has clear logs (card count included), I'd forgive that error margin...
As for people who do NOT have card counts because it wasn't specified in the logging rules, ... either give up the levels service or start counting... I can only suggest the obvious for the latter but hope this might help;
don't count one by one, count the number of cards per line and count how many lines you've got AND use a calculator. It doesn't take as long as it seems. When I used to do this manually, 1000+ so cards took around 2-3 minutes to count, and I had at least quite a few categories too, so it's not like everything was easily on one single page... what's really long is figuring out what is missing or incorrectly squeezed in. But if you're just up for counting because you never counted before, trust me, it's not that long! ;v;

Taking blizzard11
Edited 2013-02-14 02:42 (UTC)
carnimirie: (hikago sai)

[personal profile] carnimirie 2013-02-14 04:30 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, yeah, that's exactly how I count my cards too! I also upload all my cards to photobucket, so I keep my card folders on my computer really organized too so when my card count gets really high, I can count the cards on the page and balance it against what I have in my folders and see if they match ^^
indiwyn: (Default)

[personal profile] indiwyn 2013-02-14 05:53 am (UTC)(link)
I haven't had the time to figure my way around EasyTCG, so it's been all manual for me ever since I started TCGs years ago. Mistakes get made, but I've never had a big problem. I'm not really who this applies to though I think.
suguro: (Default)

[personal profile] suguro 2013-02-14 10:22 am (UTC)(link)
sorry to jump in, but from what I understood reading this comment, it seems like the rule was actually put in for players that don't use the automatic script because it could be easier for them to make a mistake?

I agree with you, mistakes might happen one way or another and a mistake doesn't mean cheating because the player isn't doing it with an intent to get ahead or something, it's just possible to overlook a card or two when your card count goes higher.
admiral: gwendolyn → odin sphere (『squall leonheart』→ ❝ final fantasy 8 ❞)

[personal profile] admiral 2013-02-15 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I use an automated card count and I know I put my 00 cards in the actual future/keeping sections so they're counted too (haha my bad) but personally it's only like, five or six extra cards, plus I always forget about leveling up until I'm halfway through the level or more, so the discrepancy never messed anything up for me. Other than that, using the auto count is pretty much accurate. I know if you're counting your cards manually it's easy to make mistakes (I used to be really meticulous at manually counting before I started using easytcg and I would still end up with 10-15 count differences sometimes) so having more detailed logs would be helpful, but that's really only if you're not using an auto count.

I keep track by worth since that's how most tcgs do it, plus it doesn't include cards that are worth 0 in the count like member cards. If you switch easytcg to count by number of cards it'll count 2 worth cards as 1 card, but it will also count 0 worth cards as 1 card (which negates the purpose of putting them in a separate section and marking them as worth 0). So I personally like the counting by worth method better because what's the point of having cards that are different worths otherwise?

tl;dr I don't know what I'm talking about anymore just ignore me. I wouldn't mind having to start marking my logs like that, but it seems kind of pointlessly time-consuming for people who have auto counts. And I'd hate to make people who manually count their cards do extra work that we don't have to do, orz.

taking changeling03, thanks!